Cecilia De Bucourt was a model in the 90’s: she worked with Naomi and Claudia by her side for elite names of the fashion industry.
A fashion designer: designed collections for Barney’s and Guess and now she has her own clothing line.
A photographer: her photos of dancers are true pieces of art that transcendents anything known so far in pole dance photography.
And of course: she’s a pole dancer. AND she recently won “Dramatic level 4 Master” at PSO Boston.
And these are just a few steps of her career.

Meet Cecilia

This beautiful woman – with her life résumé much larger than my probably 5 next incarnation will be – has really captured my heart. We had only virtual rendezvous (unfortunately we’re miles away), but I loved her energy, her creativity, her passion and the way she’s always ready for action.

And that’s why I began with a set of questions, that interested me most.

On the left: “Pin up calendar shoot in Argentina wearing a REAL snake around my neck. It felt cold and wet and super heavy.”
On the right: “ELLE Cover. I was about 25 years old.”

With a body of a goddess that you have I suppose you did some sport before?

Thank you for the compliment… No… I actually never exercised before I started pole dancing. I was really lazy and claimed most of my life that I would never get into sports or exercise. I remember saying when I was in my 20’s: “I wished I was more athletic”, I knew that it was more than just looking fit, it was a lifestyle. I tried yoga, the gym… but would quit after 3 weeks or so. I always got bored quickly.

“Natasha Wang, she is a classic in the pole world. And Icon. Pure elegance, talent and such a nice person.”

So why pole dance?

I was 41 years old, and after having 2 kids, I felt the need to do some kind of exercise. I knew very well that going to the gym was out of the question. I didn’t care only about looking fit, but I wanted to find a way of moving, expressing myself and finding a fun activity. I heard from someone that pole dancing was a great complete workout. So, I went online, googled pole dance and Michelle Stanek’s video came up (USPDF 2012 champion). I was blown away… So much elegance, strength, and beauty!

I decided to give it a try. It was April 5th, 2013 (a date I will never forget, almost as important as my birthday), and I signed up for my first intro to pole class at Body & Pole in NYC. I knew my life changed forever the moment I left class that day, I wanted more… much more. I was certain I would never quit pole dancing, but I had no idea at the time that pole dancing would affect and transform my entire life.

“Pink Puma. This was one my first shoots with an International pole Star that I have not met until my shoot day. I contacted her by FB message and asked her if I could take her photos. When the day she walked into my studio, I was blown away. Her beauty and presence are out of this world. She said she would give me 3 hours max. She stayed 8 hours. We connected and we loved the images we were doing together. I took about 2.000 images, which I can assure you 1.950 are perfect. It has never happened to me before. Choosing the very best ones, was incredibly challenging, A moment I will never forget.” 

Can you share us in what way did pole dancing affect your life?

Yes, pole dancing has transformed my life, big time.

My body had been my work tool for 14 years during my modeling years. And I was constantly judged by the way I looked and that made it difficult to feel confident or love my body.

After I started to pole dance, I felt more connected to my body, started feeling it in new ways. Amazed by the thing it can do, the way it can move, the way it can become a medium to express feelings. I now feel stronger, healthier and more confident than ever before.

And most important, when I started pole dancing, I was recently divorced. I felt so heartbroken, scared, sad, disappointed and hopeless. My divorce was the most stressful an difficult thing I went through in my entire life. I can say with certainty, pole dancing saved me. It gave me back the confidence, strength, and self-love I needed to understand that I didn’t need anyone next to me. That I AM ENOUGH. I became my best friend. And now I know that the day I choose to be with someone again, will not be from a place of ‘need’ but from a place of growth and pure love. Pole dancing “as a lifestyle” affects people more than words can explain. It is pure magic.

“Ahhhhhh Magnus, the “MagnusFICENT”! I love this guy. Currently, he teaches at Body and Pole in NYC, where I train. And I try to take all his classes. Just watching him demonstrate the moves we are learning, is a treat for me. That is where the “emoji eyes” come from… LOL. I feel that hearts come out of my eyes when I watch him dance. He is pure perfection. Also, a really nice human being. Shooting with him was one of my dreams. And, I can’t wait to shoot with him again sometime.”

It’s true. Pole dancers have a special bondage among themselves because of that magic and the experience the pole gave to them.

Yes, so true! I have met amazing friends in the pole community and there is a sense of companionship with them that is really valuable to me. I was only 14 years old when I left home in Argentina to go model in Japan, Spain, Italy, France and lastly the U.S.A. So friends are real treasures to me. I love them as a family. Today, I can say that most of my friends and people I connect with are from the pole/aerial world.

“Aggie Ng. This shoot was beyond crazy. I got an inflatable swimming pool in my studio. My idea was to fill it with water and paint (which I did) but the water in my studio was cold and this was shot in winter during the night. The heater was turned off in the whole building and it was freezing. She suffered through this. I literally took only 5-7 clicks and this came out. She was so cold and I just couldn’t make her stay longer in that silver freezing water. Aggie is incredibly talented and unique.”

You said that dance entered a bit late in your life when your creativity was already in expand. So in what way pole dance influenced your art? How would you describe the connection between the pole dance and art? The way you see it?

I started taking photos when I was twelve years old. I went through different phases of photography styles. Street photography, fashion, musicians… and when I started pole dancing, I decided that photography would be my way of giving back to this community. I wanted to create artistic photos of pole dancers in an elegant, strong and dynamic way and show to the world through photos how beautiful, elegant and classy pole dancing is. Every session is a very intense and beautiful experience for me. My goal is always to capture the essence of my subject in a new way.

I also started a pole dance clothing line which consists of a fun, handcrafted items. I sell through my website (www.ceciliadebucourt.com) and also at Boy & Pole in NYC.

“Kelly McLaughlin and her boyfriend Ryan Daniel Beck. I shot this for Body Art. Painted bodies in Copper and Silver. It is one of my favorite images I have ever done.”

Your pole photography is so different from the rest of pole photographers. It’s expressive, we can clearly see your own different vision of seeing things… how do you achieve that even the great pole stars like Marion, Natasha and the rest step out of the conventional movement and poses?

When I take photos, I stay true to my vision. It is not an effort, these images are all somehow part of me.

Working with pole starts is truly a blessing because their experience and talent are very inspiring. I always say it is teamwork. It is not only me who creates the image. We do it together. When I prepare for a shoot, I do a lot of planning. I even sketch the frames I have in mind, as a storyboard as if it was a movie. I get props, make the clothes myself, I think of the lighting, poses, hairstyle, make up, etc. And the more I plan the better it turns out.
I also like very much shooting dancers off the pole. Only in that way, I get to discover something different about the dancer and how creative they are without having a pole as an apparatus. My favorite photos of pole dancers are actually not on the pole.

On the left: “Crystal Belcher. This shoot was everything! I painted her in Gold, I made a dress out of grass, and we did some timeless images with her.”
On the right: “Marion Crampe. Ahhhh… she is a fairy, a magic soul. We have become close friends after this shoot. I adore her.”

Can an ordinary pole dancer hire you or do you pick a person who you’ll be taking pictures of? Your photography is art – I imagine it’s difficult working on demand…

For a long time, I only took photos of who I wanted to. Mostly pole stars, or people that simply inspired me. However, photography has turned into a big part of my life, and this past year, I started offering photoshoots to anyone who wanted to work with me. And it has been a wonderful experience. Every shoot becomes an unforgettable experience. We have fun while creating art. Yes, It is not easy to be an artist on demand. That is why I don’t shoot too often. I need time to recharge, and feel inspired each time.

“Steven Retchless. I call him the GOD OF BEAUTY. I believe he is the most beautiful human on the planet. On top of that, he is talented and super sweet. We have done 2 photo shoots and each time has been pure magic.”

I read somewhere that you were turned down by some designer but you kept calling him and contact him every single day till he accepted your line and together you had a very fruitful cooperation for years! Can you give us some advice, a wisdom from this anecdote?

Ohhh the story with Barney’s department store. Oh, dear… that was quite something. So when I was 29 years old I started getting tired of the modeling world and I was being turned down for castings for being ‘already too old’ so I decided to move on. I enrolled in F.I.T (Fashion Institute of technology) to become a fashion designer. At school, the teachers prepared us to be good at working for someone else. They would tell us: the day you work for someone like Donna Karan…. or Ralph Lauren… etc… and I was thinking … “why would I want to work for anybody else when I can have my own brand?”. I remember even saying that thought out loud in class and got a few cold looks from some students as if I had said something out of place. Truth is, I never even had the remote idea or wish to work for anybody.

So only one month into design school, I created my logo, my label and started hand knitting shawls and scarves. They were funky, colorful and one of a kind. I had a dream, to sell at Barneys New York. I got their number from the yellow pages (yes, we used yellow pages at the time) and called for 3 months over and over leaving messages. Until one day, they returned my call and I told them I really believed that my product was perfect for them. They set up a meeting, and they were my clients for 10 years.

My advice is to just try. Go for it… insist and don’t be scared of rejection. Keep doing what you love, and what feels right.

“Patricia Yndigoyen. I remember the first time I saw her. It was a rehearsal at Body and pole for a competition. I was still on my first baby steps in my pole journey. And she was competing and showing us her routine. I was amazed by her talent and fierceness. And started asking around: Who is that girl? I learned she was from Peru and searched her up on Facebook. After some time, we became super close friends. She also loves photography and helps me in many of my photoshoots. Patricia is the current Iceland Pole Theater Professional Champion among other International and national titles. And, my friend and soul sister!”

I want to thank you for this interview, for sharing your intimate feelings, for inspiring us and for making this world much more pleasant with your visual art. Your passionate energy is so contagious and I hope our readers had a chance to felt you as I did. I’m hardly waiting to see your next project! Wishing you all the best … and I’m so happy that this time I can say that to YOU: “emoji eyes, emoji eyes” (laugh)

Thank you, Masa! It has been really nice talking with you and really hope we meet in person someday soon!
I create these images hoping I can make people feel things so I truly appreciate your kind words about my work.
Emoji eyes… back at you!

“The End – I always take a selfie with my models after a shoot. It is a great memory and reminds both me and them of a good time we had.”

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Don’s tips & tricks

This is the second half of the interview with Don Curry.
Don’t miss the first half >> Don Curry Interview – Part 1

Are some pole elements more photogenic than the others? Or is just the angle of photography that is important?

When I shoot, I focus on getting the right angle. I’ll always ask a girl to tell me the trick she is going to do. I know that every country, every town has a different name for these tricks, but as a photographer, I know the names, so I know what angle to anticipate.

Do you have some tricks how to take a nice picture by ourselves?

The only recommendation I can tell to people who are taking pictures of themselves is that the good way is to just videotape themselves and avoid this problem. Then watch it and screenshot the right angle. I know a lot of people do that. They’ll videotape their move, and they’ll slow it down, they’ll watch it, got the right angle, take a screenshot of it, and there’s your shot.

Judging by your photos, you’re totally familiar with pole elements, their names and you are not a pole dancer. Was that difficult for you?

At the very beginning of my pole photography journey, I was fascinated that every trick had a name to it. So I just started remembering the names. I remember the very first shoot I did, over and over again girls were saying “butterfly.” Then I noticed what angle to shoot it. Or … you never forget the “jade“ the first time you see it, right?

So these things helped me learn quicker what to anticipate at the next photoshoot. Because when you yell out a name, for me as a pole photographer, the first thing I’m thinking is “Okay, I’m going to shoot it at this angle.”

When I saw pole dance for the first time, to me it was this beautiful geometry. I saw the angles, I saw the lines, what to look for. No crotch shots or something like that. I think a lot of girls, especially at the beginning, began to appreciate that I was trying to get the right angle. I’m very, very quick now and the girls appreciate that.

But every shot I take, I’ll show it to the girl and I’ll ask her how she likes it. So when you’re shooting show them what you did. It’s a collaboration.

Do you or your pole clients prefer more clean photos with white backgrounds or more with abstract backgrounds for you to tell a story?

At the very start, I needed a style, that I can go to each studio and have that same look. And for me, the white is the best setup because the white and the soft light is very complementary to the skin. It doesn’t matter if you’re big, small, muscular, not muscular – it’s just less contrast and it’s just a softer quality.

When shooting on a white background I can do a lot of variations of that same picture. If that pose or trick was really good, I can come up with eight different variations. I can take out the white and add a city background. I don’t do it a lot, but you can do more effects dealing with white as opposed to shooting on a background that’s busy or something like that. In the beginning, I went through different styles, but soon enough I discovered my own style.

When they see my work on Facebook or Instagram, they know exactly what they’re going to get when they sign up for a photoshoot. There’s a little deviation, but the girls know exactly what they’re going to get, and that’s what I want to give them.

And the girls like that…

Yes, and they prefer the simple white. My photo philosophy is: “it’s all about the subject”. A good photographer can take any subject into a simple background and make that subject come alive. I think that’s what the girls see, and that’s what they want.

True, sometimes it’s nice to go outdoors – like I just shot in Paris with Leigh Ann Reilly. It’s sometimes nice to have busy backgrounds, but it’s all about the subject.

Once you said that your wish is to take a picture of Misty Copeland, who is now quite a celebrity. Did your wish come true?

No, I’ve never reached out to her. But yeah, she’s still one of my dreams to shoot, someone outside of pole. She’s amazing. Talented. Taking pictures of her would be an honor.

What are your plans for the future of pole photography? Do you have any plans or wishes?

No plans. Starting next year, I just want to visit more countries that I haven’t visited before. Thankfully there’s a lot of countries wanting me to come … Hong Kong, Singapore … Countries like that I haven’t been to, I want to go. Just kind of expand. As an artist, you’ve got to keep evolving and changing and growing.

And I want to spend more time in Italy. I love it here. This is one of my favorite countries. I’ve already decided that next year I want to spend one month in Italy.

Also, Italy is very inspiring.

Yes, it is, it is. I’ve always enjoyed Italians and Italian culture. I vacation here with my kids. And the people are really very warm. Very, very warm compared to other countries.

And the last question, for the inspiration: what is your message? What would you say, something that nobody has asked you before?

If I was talking to myself, I would tell myself to love yourself first. I remind myself every day to love yourself first because if you love yourself first, you can love someone else. That applies to pole dancing, that applies to relationships. It’s something like a younger man, I didn’t know. Once I realized, love yourself, realize your faults, realize your strengths – try to love what you do. If you don’t love what you do, go out and chase your dreams.

I know it sounds corny, but you’ve got to love yourself first before you can love someone else, or love another woman or love another man or really love your kids. When you have that, I think people around you are affected by that, and without even saying a word, they can feel it.

And I think it shows in my photography, because I love photography, but then when I discovered pole dance, I was like “Wow, I love what I do.” I go to bed at night thinking “Thank God,” I wake up every morning and I say “Thank you.” I think people around me see it and they feel it.

So “love yourself.”

Love yourself first.

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And these are impressions of Polona about her cooperation
with Don Curry:

Marlo’s tips and advice

This is the last third of the interview with Marlo.
Don’t miss the second third >> Marlo Fisken Interview – Part 2

What would you say is the biggest struggle or obstacle among pole dance students that you come across? What would be your advice to them?

I think that your performance in the classroom is a reflection of what you do outside of the classroom. If somebody is coming in and they feel like they are not growing, or suffers chronic injury, probably what they’re doing outside of the classroom is the reason. It could be nutritional (and I mean lack of nourishment, I’m not a proponent of dieting), it could be psychological, or it could simply be a lack of rest and restorative outside movement. Your entire lifestyle will affect what happens in the classroom; it’s not just what you do in class that determines success.

If you want to be good, or great, or see improvements, your other choices should be in line with that goal. Organizing your life in a way that supports your goals is key. If the goal is something you truly desire, making the changes necessary isn’t so difficult.

If you feel like you are always struggling to make decisions that match your goal, then maybe the goal isn’t important enough. Maybe you need a different goal. Often, if your focus is on aesthetics alone, it’s not deep enough for you to restructure your life.

I believe that if you find something that you really care about, it won’t be hard to make decisions that support your success.

For me, going to bed late at night. No. Not an option. I feel terrible, and the next day my physical performance will be down. I’ll be fatigued. I’m not productive, I won’t be able to teach very well. And I hate that feeling. I feel like I have wasted a day.

And you respect that …

Yeah, I know it. [laughs] It’s never a good idea. Unless the next day there’s nothing important and the reason for staying up is truly incredible, I won’t do it.

So, how to deal with the inner negative dialogue…? This is something that I came across with more or less all the colleagues. How to stop it, how to overcome the feeling “I’m not capable, I cannot do this, she is much better” and all the things that go round and round in our heads?w is important, but I don’t know how to put this in words. What would you say, and what tip would you give to someone who would like to freestyle more?

That’s a big question. You can dedicate your life to studying that very thing.  I think that you hear a lot of  your own “talk” when you’re not focused enough, or the task is overwhelming (which is totally a matter of perspective). Flow state is concept from phycology— it’s about immersion and being so focused on what you’re doing that there’s not space for other stuff. In this state, time gets distorted,  creativity streams, and you perform at a high level. So, training yourself to focus in is key. And focus in regards to movement, and the body, has a lot to do with breath. Most people will …

They’re holding their breath…

Yeah, right, exactly. Not actually exhaling, completely exhaling. I had a teacher named Leslie Kaminoff who’s very renowned for yoga and breath work.  He would often say “just exhale, the inhale will take care of itself.” Basically, if you exhale fully, your body will take in more air on the next breath, so if you can just focus on breathing out…

All the tensions go out…

Yeah. Like at the end of the day; if someone sighs (audibly exhales), they are sub-consciously trying to create relaxation in the body. Physical tension and mental tension are interlaced. You can’t have one without the other. So internal dialogue changes the way you breathe. If you change the way you breathe, you will change the way you think, and what your body is capable of. After a full and complete exhale, your body is more receptive and has more potential.

Great. As you were saying before, you’re quite a nomad; you travel a lot. Ten months per year, you are traveling around. You’ve met many, many people, and all that workshops and all the students – what would you say is the difference between, let’s say, Slovenian or European students versus American or South American or Brazilian …?

Even within Europe, you have a lot of variety. I’ll say some places are much more distant. Sometimes as a teacher, at the end, I have no idea if anybody liked anything because they’re just stone cold. I’ll give exercises intended to make people laugh, but because they’re so serious, I’m like “I have no idea if this is a disaster.” You get that in some places in Europe. I won’t mention where. [laughs]

Is Slovenia a country like this?

Not the worst that I’ve seen. But the reality is, every studio creates a culture. I’ve been in eastern European country where I went to one studio and they were just fun, and laughing, and friendly, and I went to another and it was drastically different. So there’s not just the culture of the country, but a culture within a studio. You might find quite a difference just from studio to studio. Some places talk a lot, like talk over me while I’m talking, and until I start screaming and having to whistle, they won’t stop talking…

In Japan, they’re very quiet, and they watch. Many don’t understand English, but they will do the movement correctly because they’re very observant. Meanwhile, in America sometimes, I say something in English, in an accent they understand, but they are not hearing me and they’re not seeing me. So language is not necessarily the obstacle. It’s more cultural, how observant people are, or how focused they are.

Yes, it’s true what you say … I’ve been to several different studios in the same city, and they have completely different energy. So it much depends on the owner of the studio…

The energy of whoever is in the studio the most is there. They impact how people  will feel before about the place before they even open the door. Everything, your logo, your website, the greeting, the warmness, matters… And it doesn’t have to be luxury, but there’s just…

An energy.

Yeah, it’s just an energy. This can really determine the success of your business. People will come back if they’re getting something positive, and feel free within the space. This depends on what the owner, staff, and other students are putting out.

But also, structural details, like the ability to modify lighting is really important. I’ve been to some places where the only option is like the office, painfully fluorescent and bright, or dark.
I want to turn off the aggressive lighting to free inhibitions and set the mood but then it makes people want to go to sleep. So that’s an important piece of studio energy as well.

If we want to be better at pole dance … what are your top three books that you would recommend?

I like to always say that my recommendations about anything are not just for pole dancers; they are for humans. [laughs] Whatever you want to be good at.

Number one is Move Your DNA by Katy Bowman. This book makes sense out of the concept of natural movement and explains why it’s important. If you want to understand why footwear could make such a big difference on your entire body, this book will explain that and many other similar concepts. It explains a healthier way to envision movement. The idea that “exercise” is required for fitness, is troublesome. I know this sounds crazy, because this idea is so ingrained in the modern mindset, and is marketed to us constantly—but it is wrong.
Separating exercise from the way you simply live and provide is an unnatural thing to do. The book is tremendous. I’ve recommended it to a lot of people, and everyone comes back and says “I’m so glad, you told me about that.” It’s easy to read, and it’s entertaining. It’s essential reading.

If you want to gain more understanding of anatomy, the series of Bandha Yoga, has a series of books. It’s geared toward yoga, but the illustrations are like CGI pictures of what’s going on inside the body. They have the highest level of clarity that I’ve ever seen. They do a really good job at helping you understand muscle activation within a position and how that role of activating the muscles – both the ones being stretched, the supporting structures – brings balance tho the body. Rarely can you really learn anatomy or movement science from a book, but I think that they’ve probably done the best job at making that something you can understand. And they’re pretty to look at, too.

And the third that comes to mind – I don’t know if it’s my top 3, but it’s called Talent Is Overrated. It’s a book about what goes into being amazing at something. It can be enlightening if you feel like you’re struggling to be good at something, to realize just exactly what  goes into excellence.

Oh also, Jill Miller is somebody that I really respect. She created the program called Yoga Tune Up, which is basically self myo-fascial release (using balls to release tension). She recently put out a book called The Roll Model, and it is a guided book on how to do these techniques. It’s really well done, and very clear. If you can recognize “Okay, I struggle with raising my arms overhead. I tried stretching my shoulders and that doesn’t work.” It’s probably because stretching isn’t what you need. If your tissues are dormant, or in a protective state, this book can offer relief and insight.

Both Katy Bowman, Jill Miller, and the Bandha series,  have a lot of free stuff online. You can listen to podcasts, you can watch interviews, you can read articles that they’ve written. They’re all organizations that you can rely on for a lot of continuing education, not just the books I mentioned.

Perfect! Very helpful tips. I thank you for that. Now I know which will be my next book in line to read [laughs]… And to conclude the interview, what is your tip or the wisest thought for today? A message maybe …

If you ever have the opportunity to be on the floor rather than sitting in a chair, take it.
Be in a position that’s not seated when it’s available. And sometimes that means that you’re the weird one, or inappropriate, but you have to be okay with that. I’ll be in a squat or in a cobra in a hotel lobby sometimes. That’s part of putting more movement throughout the day and not just in your training time.

And with this Marlo’s though I conclude:

“Your entire lifestyle will affect what happens in pole classroom; it’s not just what you do while you’re in there.”

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You want to know Marlo better? These links are “a must”:

flowmovement.net – Marlo’s official site

https://www.youtube.com/user/marlodancer – Marlo’s YouTube channel

http://aerialamy.com/blog/2012/03/30/personal-style-marlo-fisken-part-i/ – Aerial Amy’s interview with Marlo

Photos by Pole Ninja

About Freestyle and expressing yourself

This is the second third of the interview with Marlo. Photos by Pole Ninja.
Don’t miss the first third >> Marlo Fisken Interview – Part 1

How one can find her or his own style in dance, or his or her own lifestyle? Because there’s too much copying others among the ordinary pole dancers who look up to their idols, and they fail because their personality doesn’t match their wishes. What is your tip to find one’s own expression or lifestyle?

You have to spend time alone, moving. It doesn’t have to be just pole, but you have to spend time alone, moving. It can be something very basic that you start with, like cat/cow, ( when you are on all four’s, rounding your back and arching your back). Just do that movement, or something similar, for one whole song. Do it at varying speeds and focus on different parts of your spine. Eventually, the basic movement will start to become something else. This is the beginning of style.

If you see someone that really stands out as unique, I promise that they’ve spent a lot of time alone, moving.

Exploring themselves.

Exploring themselves. And of course, maybe you have somebody that you do it with, but it’s important who you choose to move with.

When I started, I had a lot of experience moving, but not with pole. I would spend many, many hours alone, just working with the pole any way I could. I didn’t have anybody to train with, and as a result I made discoveries that I probably wouldn’t have made if I had started in class and I learned everything I know from class.

Style is the result of practice. I don’t really like the word “practice” because it sounds like something that you have to do. Style is the result of you, finding you.

It’s more spending time with your own self.

Yeah, spend time moving. Put on music and move; it can be something very simple.

Simple but effective…

Yes.

Many pole dance colleagues of mine, they’re terrified of freestyle, but at the same time it attracts them. I know that freestyle somehow is important, but I don’t know how to put this in words. What would you say, and what tip would you give to someone who would like to freestyle more?

I agree that freestyle is a scary thing.  Even for someone who’s a very experienced mover, it can still be very scary. Level of experience with pole and being terrified of free-styling are not necessarily related. It’s important to realize that much of fear is internal dialogue. There is no true, life-threatening danger with improvisation- the danger is not real. When you are fearful, there are words circulating in your mind that judge, doubt, stress, and deny yourself an opportunity that you probably want. You want to move freely, you want to be expressive; this is a very basic human desire. Yet, you block it.

Somebody who enjoys freestyle, has a different internal dialogue (let’s do this!) from someone who’s scared of it (I’m not good.). Many people, and I relate to this, become shut-down at the prospect of being seen and exposed. But then, once they find the courage to shut down the doubt and JUST DO IT, they feel incredible.

My number one suggestion is that you need to listen to music that brings you peace or joy first. Just listen. Don’t even try to move. And then breathe to the music. If you’re listening, and you’re paying attention to your breath, and relationship between the song and your breath, you’re going to calm yourself down. You should begin in a calm state.

But also, having games, similar to what we did in the warmup – can really help.

Just saying, “Okay, the song is on. I need to dance” – that’s a big challenge. Give yourself an assignment, like “I’m going to move to this song, and I’m never going to take my hands off the pole at any time” – it’s possible. It’s very possible. But because you have something to focus on, it will make the process easier, and you’ll probably create something interesting. You can make hundreds of these games. The new movement patterns you discover come together at some point, when you are ready to just let it all pour out.

Very creative! But if you decide to dance choreography, how long must one spend, how many hours, to make it their own or to feel it, not think about it? Weeks?

It could really depend on the person. In a way, if I said “You have to perform tomorrow,” you will make something. It just may not be very complex, and it won’t be full of “new” skills, but you will find a way.

The more time you have with a piece of music, then the more you can develop it. I believe if you want to truly choreography to a song, every single choice that you make about your movement has to be because of the music, not because it’s a trick that you like to do.

Something doesn’t have to be complicated to be incredible. There’s a quote I like; “Sometimes your ‘stop doing’ list needs to be bigger than your ‘to do’ list.” And for many people, when they make routines, their list of things that they want to put in is just way too big. You need to take it away, take it away, take it away until you are left with what is truly necessary.

Then from that minimal point, let it grow, and let it develop. Rather than realizing that you’ve put everything you’ve ever learned in the piece, become the song; become the story.

So how long? Different for different people. Of course, having months is nice because then you can take your time. But if you’re also doing difficult things, the longer you spend preparing for it, the more likely it is that you’ll have overuse injuries.

I read somewhere that you’ve never been injured before during training or performances. To me, this sounds like you know how to listen to your body, which is quite rare these days.

No, I have, just never anything that put me out for a long time. Pole is treacherous!

But my worst injuries all happened when I was teaching.  I sometimes teach all day, and then have to demonstrate when I’m not warm enough. When teaching, you’re focused on the students— then you have to jump up and demonstrate something- and BAM- you realize that was a bad idea. I’ve learned that lesson though.

You’re not warmed enough…

Yeah, also dealing with poles of different sizes, and materials can be dangerous if you are not prepared.

But yes, I do listen, and this is part of why I don’t really perform very much, because pole creates a lot more physical issues than my off-the-pole movement does. It’s important to me that I can move without pain for a very long time, so that means that it’s less pole, more functional movement and floorwork.

What is your favorite cross-training? Because you have an amazing body, muscles, flexibility… I’m sure you’re not only pole dancing or only doing stretching or only dancing.

My body is the result of a lifetime of movement and really caring about the food I eat. I move every day, but it’s actually pretty gentle mobility & body-weight conditioning most of the time. If I’m home, nourished and rested I push myself more and do explosive training like sprints as well.

Is this your favorite cross-training?

I think it’s essential, so I value it tremendously. Also, hiking and climbing are really important.  I love them because they’re very primal, restorative movements. Being able to walk on uneven surfaces and pull yourself in irregular patterns is really important to your body-balance. When you start to do those things, muscles that have become asleep, wake-up and begin to work for you.

It’s very natural movement…

Yes, it is. I also love some things that are more acrobatic, like taking classes that use capoeira or breakdancing skills. I really love it, it challenges me. Makes me think. Luckily, where I live, there’s a big community of people that do this kind of movement, so I’m not alone in that quest. [laughs]

You’ve practiced also yoga, right? … What can you say about the body-mind connection regarding pole dance? Or is there anything to say?

Yes, I think certain types of movement get put in the mind-body exercise category, like yoga or Pilates, tai chi, Gyrotonic. But to me, there’s a problem if any of your movement is not a mind-body activity.

Which is also pole dance?

Well, yeah. Like yoga, movement is only one little part of pole; breath and psychology are important components. If, after pole, your mental state is improved, and you make loving, grounded choices, this is good. If your pole practice (or the people you practice with) makes you judgmental and negative—notice that.

This goes for any movement activity. If you’re having to watch TV, scroll Facebook, eat snacks and train at the same time–- you’re really missing the point of training.

Now with pole there are some limiting factors that make finding a meditative flow difficult. Being able to do a movement for an extended period of time is a big part of being able to get lost in it. So unfortunately with pole, we’re kind of limited to a song or two songs of real “output” – but still, a lot of benefit can happen from being completely immersed in something for even 4 minutes or 5 minutes, because that’s more than most people ever do.

Also, having to clean it, can break your flow and engagement but it doesn’t have to. It’s not an aggravation, it’s part of the process. Sometimes you sweat, and this limits you from doing somethings, but there is still so much that you CAN do. I see many beginners frustrated by sweat, but I suggest you think of it as a gift to explore what IS possible.

Do you meditate?

Not in the traditional, upright sense except for on airplanes. The rest of the time I do “floor sessions” in the morning or when I realize I’m stressed. I lay on the floor and breathe for several minutes, this often leads me into some myo-fascial release (like with the foam roller or balls), which is meditative. But I often start my movement sessions with quiet and stillness.

You really impressed me as a teacher. You’re a great performer, but you really impressed me as a teacher. You’re very good at it. As you said, nowadays many pole dancers are becoming teachers, and the question is, do you necessarily have to be a good performer to be also a good teacher? Or simply you can also be a good teacher and bad performer? Is this correlated?

No, I don’t think they’re the same thing. Of course, a good performer will have more to teach about performance.  But, there’s many different types of teaching. There’s the teacher who has a good eye for detail and they can fix something, but they’re not an artist. Then there’s maybe somebody who’s a very artistic teacher that doesn’t know much about the technical aspects of the body. These people can be very good teachers, but very different teachers. And then there’s the motivator, the teacher who just makes everybody feel good. They’re not even a very good mover, but they create a really uplifting, valuable energy in the room.

Ideally, the same person can do all of that, but that’s asking a lot. That’s asking for somebody to dedicate their life to the art of teaching, and possibly be someone they are not. My teaching philosophy is: it’s most important to only share what you are passionate about; this will attract people to you.

That’s why it’s important to go to different workshops and different teachers?

Yes, learn from different people in different modalities, not just pole. You learn to teach by being a student. If you want to be a good teacher learn from someone who is crazy passionate and whose teaching inspires you.

I think that if you find a pole teacher who’s really good at teaching, most of them have experienced being a student in something else for a long period of time. It would be very hard to be a good teacher if you haven’t spent much time as a student.
You also learn what not to do by having bad teachers. That’s important, too. When you take a class and realize what didn’t work, you learn about how to behave as a teacher.

– End of Part 2 –

You want to know how to be better at pole dance? Then read on to the last third >> Marlo Fisken Interview – Part 3

Photos by Pole Ninja