Marlo’s tips and advice

This is the last third of the interview with Marlo.
Don’t miss the second third >> Marlo Fisken Interview – Part 2

What would you say is the biggest struggle or obstacle among pole dance students that you come across? What would be your advice to them?

I think that your performance in the classroom is a reflection of what you do outside of the classroom. If somebody is coming in and they feel like they are not growing, or suffers chronic injury, probably what they’re doing outside of the classroom is the reason. It could be nutritional (and I mean lack of nourishment, I’m not a proponent of dieting), it could be psychological, or it could simply be a lack of rest and restorative outside movement. Your entire lifestyle will affect what happens in the classroom; it’s not just what you do in class that determines success.

If you want to be good, or great, or see improvements, your other choices should be in line with that goal. Organizing your life in a way that supports your goals is key. If the goal is something you truly desire, making the changes necessary isn’t so difficult.

If you feel like you are always struggling to make decisions that match your goal, then maybe the goal isn’t important enough. Maybe you need a different goal. Often, if your focus is on aesthetics alone, it’s not deep enough for you to restructure your life.

I believe that if you find something that you really care about, it won’t be hard to make decisions that support your success.

For me, going to bed late at night. No. Not an option. I feel terrible, and the next day my physical performance will be down. I’ll be fatigued. I’m not productive, I won’t be able to teach very well. And I hate that feeling. I feel like I have wasted a day.

And you respect that …

Yeah, I know it. [laughs] It’s never a good idea. Unless the next day there’s nothing important and the reason for staying up is truly incredible, I won’t do it.

So, how to deal with the inner negative dialogue…? This is something that I came across with more or less all the colleagues. How to stop it, how to overcome the feeling “I’m not capable, I cannot do this, she is much better” and all the things that go round and round in our heads?w is important, but I don’t know how to put this in words. What would you say, and what tip would you give to someone who would like to freestyle more?

That’s a big question. You can dedicate your life to studying that very thing.  I think that you hear a lot of  your own “talk” when you’re not focused enough, or the task is overwhelming (which is totally a matter of perspective). Flow state is concept from phycology— it’s about immersion and being so focused on what you’re doing that there’s not space for other stuff. In this state, time gets distorted,  creativity streams, and you perform at a high level. So, training yourself to focus in is key. And focus in regards to movement, and the body, has a lot to do with breath. Most people will …

They’re holding their breath…

Yeah, right, exactly. Not actually exhaling, completely exhaling. I had a teacher named Leslie Kaminoff who’s very renowned for yoga and breath work.  He would often say “just exhale, the inhale will take care of itself.” Basically, if you exhale fully, your body will take in more air on the next breath, so if you can just focus on breathing out…

All the tensions go out…

Yeah. Like at the end of the day; if someone sighs (audibly exhales), they are sub-consciously trying to create relaxation in the body. Physical tension and mental tension are interlaced. You can’t have one without the other. So internal dialogue changes the way you breathe. If you change the way you breathe, you will change the way you think, and what your body is capable of. After a full and complete exhale, your body is more receptive and has more potential.

Great. As you were saying before, you’re quite a nomad; you travel a lot. Ten months per year, you are traveling around. You’ve met many, many people, and all that workshops and all the students – what would you say is the difference between, let’s say, Slovenian or European students versus American or South American or Brazilian …?

Even within Europe, you have a lot of variety. I’ll say some places are much more distant. Sometimes as a teacher, at the end, I have no idea if anybody liked anything because they’re just stone cold. I’ll give exercises intended to make people laugh, but because they’re so serious, I’m like “I have no idea if this is a disaster.” You get that in some places in Europe. I won’t mention where. [laughs]

Is Slovenia a country like this?

Not the worst that I’ve seen. But the reality is, every studio creates a culture. I’ve been in eastern European country where I went to one studio and they were just fun, and laughing, and friendly, and I went to another and it was drastically different. So there’s not just the culture of the country, but a culture within a studio. You might find quite a difference just from studio to studio. Some places talk a lot, like talk over me while I’m talking, and until I start screaming and having to whistle, they won’t stop talking…

In Japan, they’re very quiet, and they watch. Many don’t understand English, but they will do the movement correctly because they’re very observant. Meanwhile, in America sometimes, I say something in English, in an accent they understand, but they are not hearing me and they’re not seeing me. So language is not necessarily the obstacle. It’s more cultural, how observant people are, or how focused they are.

Yes, it’s true what you say … I’ve been to several different studios in the same city, and they have completely different energy. So it much depends on the owner of the studio…

The energy of whoever is in the studio the most is there. They impact how people  will feel before about the place before they even open the door. Everything, your logo, your website, the greeting, the warmness, matters… And it doesn’t have to be luxury, but there’s just…

An energy.

Yeah, it’s just an energy. This can really determine the success of your business. People will come back if they’re getting something positive, and feel free within the space. This depends on what the owner, staff, and other students are putting out.

But also, structural details, like the ability to modify lighting is really important. I’ve been to some places where the only option is like the office, painfully fluorescent and bright, or dark.
I want to turn off the aggressive lighting to free inhibitions and set the mood but then it makes people want to go to sleep. So that’s an important piece of studio energy as well.

If we want to be better at pole dance … what are your top three books that you would recommend?

I like to always say that my recommendations about anything are not just for pole dancers; they are for humans. [laughs] Whatever you want to be good at.

Number one is Move Your DNA by Katy Bowman. This book makes sense out of the concept of natural movement and explains why it’s important. If you want to understand why footwear could make such a big difference on your entire body, this book will explain that and many other similar concepts. It explains a healthier way to envision movement. The idea that “exercise” is required for fitness, is troublesome. I know this sounds crazy, because this idea is so ingrained in the modern mindset, and is marketed to us constantly—but it is wrong.
Separating exercise from the way you simply live and provide is an unnatural thing to do. The book is tremendous. I’ve recommended it to a lot of people, and everyone comes back and says “I’m so glad, you told me about that.” It’s easy to read, and it’s entertaining. It’s essential reading.

If you want to gain more understanding of anatomy, the series of Bandha Yoga, has a series of books. It’s geared toward yoga, but the illustrations are like CGI pictures of what’s going on inside the body. They have the highest level of clarity that I’ve ever seen. They do a really good job at helping you understand muscle activation within a position and how that role of activating the muscles – both the ones being stretched, the supporting structures – brings balance tho the body. Rarely can you really learn anatomy or movement science from a book, but I think that they’ve probably done the best job at making that something you can understand. And they’re pretty to look at, too.

And the third that comes to mind – I don’t know if it’s my top 3, but it’s called Talent Is Overrated. It’s a book about what goes into being amazing at something. It can be enlightening if you feel like you’re struggling to be good at something, to realize just exactly what  goes into excellence.

Oh also, Jill Miller is somebody that I really respect. She created the program called Yoga Tune Up, which is basically self myo-fascial release (using balls to release tension). She recently put out a book called The Roll Model, and it is a guided book on how to do these techniques. It’s really well done, and very clear. If you can recognize “Okay, I struggle with raising my arms overhead. I tried stretching my shoulders and that doesn’t work.” It’s probably because stretching isn’t what you need. If your tissues are dormant, or in a protective state, this book can offer relief and insight.

Both Katy Bowman, Jill Miller, and the Bandha series,  have a lot of free stuff online. You can listen to podcasts, you can watch interviews, you can read articles that they’ve written. They’re all organizations that you can rely on for a lot of continuing education, not just the books I mentioned.

Perfect! Very helpful tips. I thank you for that. Now I know which will be my next book in line to read [laughs]… And to conclude the interview, what is your tip or the wisest thought for today? A message maybe …

If you ever have the opportunity to be on the floor rather than sitting in a chair, take it.
Be in a position that’s not seated when it’s available. And sometimes that means that you’re the weird one, or inappropriate, but you have to be okay with that. I’ll be in a squat or in a cobra in a hotel lobby sometimes. That’s part of putting more movement throughout the day and not just in your training time.

And with this Marlo’s though I conclude:

“Your entire lifestyle will affect what happens in pole classroom; it’s not just what you do while you’re in there.”

————————————-

You want to know Marlo better? These links are “a must”:

flowmovement.net – Marlo’s official site

https://www.youtube.com/user/marlodancer – Marlo’s YouTube channel

http://aerialamy.com/blog/2012/03/30/personal-style-marlo-fisken-part-i/ – Aerial Amy’s interview with Marlo

Photos by Pole Ninja

About Freestyle and expressing yourself

This is the second third of the interview with Marlo. Photos by Pole Ninja.
Don’t miss the first third >> Marlo Fisken Interview – Part 1

How one can find her or his own style in dance, or his or her own lifestyle? Because there’s too much copying others among the ordinary pole dancers who look up to their idols, and they fail because their personality doesn’t match their wishes. What is your tip to find one’s own expression or lifestyle?

You have to spend time alone, moving. It doesn’t have to be just pole, but you have to spend time alone, moving. It can be something very basic that you start with, like cat/cow, ( when you are on all four’s, rounding your back and arching your back). Just do that movement, or something similar, for one whole song. Do it at varying speeds and focus on different parts of your spine. Eventually, the basic movement will start to become something else. This is the beginning of style.

If you see someone that really stands out as unique, I promise that they’ve spent a lot of time alone, moving.

Exploring themselves.

Exploring themselves. And of course, maybe you have somebody that you do it with, but it’s important who you choose to move with.

When I started, I had a lot of experience moving, but not with pole. I would spend many, many hours alone, just working with the pole any way I could. I didn’t have anybody to train with, and as a result I made discoveries that I probably wouldn’t have made if I had started in class and I learned everything I know from class.

Style is the result of practice. I don’t really like the word “practice” because it sounds like something that you have to do. Style is the result of you, finding you.

It’s more spending time with your own self.

Yeah, spend time moving. Put on music and move; it can be something very simple.

Simple but effective…

Yes.

Many pole dance colleagues of mine, they’re terrified of freestyle, but at the same time it attracts them. I know that freestyle somehow is important, but I don’t know how to put this in words. What would you say, and what tip would you give to someone who would like to freestyle more?

I agree that freestyle is a scary thing.  Even for someone who’s a very experienced mover, it can still be very scary. Level of experience with pole and being terrified of free-styling are not necessarily related. It’s important to realize that much of fear is internal dialogue. There is no true, life-threatening danger with improvisation- the danger is not real. When you are fearful, there are words circulating in your mind that judge, doubt, stress, and deny yourself an opportunity that you probably want. You want to move freely, you want to be expressive; this is a very basic human desire. Yet, you block it.

Somebody who enjoys freestyle, has a different internal dialogue (let’s do this!) from someone who’s scared of it (I’m not good.). Many people, and I relate to this, become shut-down at the prospect of being seen and exposed. But then, once they find the courage to shut down the doubt and JUST DO IT, they feel incredible.

My number one suggestion is that you need to listen to music that brings you peace or joy first. Just listen. Don’t even try to move. And then breathe to the music. If you’re listening, and you’re paying attention to your breath, and relationship between the song and your breath, you’re going to calm yourself down. You should begin in a calm state.

But also, having games, similar to what we did in the warmup – can really help.

Just saying, “Okay, the song is on. I need to dance” – that’s a big challenge. Give yourself an assignment, like “I’m going to move to this song, and I’m never going to take my hands off the pole at any time” – it’s possible. It’s very possible. But because you have something to focus on, it will make the process easier, and you’ll probably create something interesting. You can make hundreds of these games. The new movement patterns you discover come together at some point, when you are ready to just let it all pour out.

Very creative! But if you decide to dance choreography, how long must one spend, how many hours, to make it their own or to feel it, not think about it? Weeks?

It could really depend on the person. In a way, if I said “You have to perform tomorrow,” you will make something. It just may not be very complex, and it won’t be full of “new” skills, but you will find a way.

The more time you have with a piece of music, then the more you can develop it. I believe if you want to truly choreography to a song, every single choice that you make about your movement has to be because of the music, not because it’s a trick that you like to do.

Something doesn’t have to be complicated to be incredible. There’s a quote I like; “Sometimes your ‘stop doing’ list needs to be bigger than your ‘to do’ list.” And for many people, when they make routines, their list of things that they want to put in is just way too big. You need to take it away, take it away, take it away until you are left with what is truly necessary.

Then from that minimal point, let it grow, and let it develop. Rather than realizing that you’ve put everything you’ve ever learned in the piece, become the song; become the story.

So how long? Different for different people. Of course, having months is nice because then you can take your time. But if you’re also doing difficult things, the longer you spend preparing for it, the more likely it is that you’ll have overuse injuries.

I read somewhere that you’ve never been injured before during training or performances. To me, this sounds like you know how to listen to your body, which is quite rare these days.

No, I have, just never anything that put me out for a long time. Pole is treacherous!

But my worst injuries all happened when I was teaching.  I sometimes teach all day, and then have to demonstrate when I’m not warm enough. When teaching, you’re focused on the students— then you have to jump up and demonstrate something- and BAM- you realize that was a bad idea. I’ve learned that lesson though.

You’re not warmed enough…

Yeah, also dealing with poles of different sizes, and materials can be dangerous if you are not prepared.

But yes, I do listen, and this is part of why I don’t really perform very much, because pole creates a lot more physical issues than my off-the-pole movement does. It’s important to me that I can move without pain for a very long time, so that means that it’s less pole, more functional movement and floorwork.

What is your favorite cross-training? Because you have an amazing body, muscles, flexibility… I’m sure you’re not only pole dancing or only doing stretching or only dancing.

My body is the result of a lifetime of movement and really caring about the food I eat. I move every day, but it’s actually pretty gentle mobility & body-weight conditioning most of the time. If I’m home, nourished and rested I push myself more and do explosive training like sprints as well.

Is this your favorite cross-training?

I think it’s essential, so I value it tremendously. Also, hiking and climbing are really important.  I love them because they’re very primal, restorative movements. Being able to walk on uneven surfaces and pull yourself in irregular patterns is really important to your body-balance. When you start to do those things, muscles that have become asleep, wake-up and begin to work for you.

It’s very natural movement…

Yes, it is. I also love some things that are more acrobatic, like taking classes that use capoeira or breakdancing skills. I really love it, it challenges me. Makes me think. Luckily, where I live, there’s a big community of people that do this kind of movement, so I’m not alone in that quest. [laughs]

You’ve practiced also yoga, right? … What can you say about the body-mind connection regarding pole dance? Or is there anything to say?

Yes, I think certain types of movement get put in the mind-body exercise category, like yoga or Pilates, tai chi, Gyrotonic. But to me, there’s a problem if any of your movement is not a mind-body activity.

Which is also pole dance?

Well, yeah. Like yoga, movement is only one little part of pole; breath and psychology are important components. If, after pole, your mental state is improved, and you make loving, grounded choices, this is good. If your pole practice (or the people you practice with) makes you judgmental and negative—notice that.

This goes for any movement activity. If you’re having to watch TV, scroll Facebook, eat snacks and train at the same time–- you’re really missing the point of training.

Now with pole there are some limiting factors that make finding a meditative flow difficult. Being able to do a movement for an extended period of time is a big part of being able to get lost in it. So unfortunately with pole, we’re kind of limited to a song or two songs of real “output” – but still, a lot of benefit can happen from being completely immersed in something for even 4 minutes or 5 minutes, because that’s more than most people ever do.

Also, having to clean it, can break your flow and engagement but it doesn’t have to. It’s not an aggravation, it’s part of the process. Sometimes you sweat, and this limits you from doing somethings, but there is still so much that you CAN do. I see many beginners frustrated by sweat, but I suggest you think of it as a gift to explore what IS possible.

Do you meditate?

Not in the traditional, upright sense except for on airplanes. The rest of the time I do “floor sessions” in the morning or when I realize I’m stressed. I lay on the floor and breathe for several minutes, this often leads me into some myo-fascial release (like with the foam roller or balls), which is meditative. But I often start my movement sessions with quiet and stillness.

You really impressed me as a teacher. You’re a great performer, but you really impressed me as a teacher. You’re very good at it. As you said, nowadays many pole dancers are becoming teachers, and the question is, do you necessarily have to be a good performer to be also a good teacher? Or simply you can also be a good teacher and bad performer? Is this correlated?

No, I don’t think they’re the same thing. Of course, a good performer will have more to teach about performance.  But, there’s many different types of teaching. There’s the teacher who has a good eye for detail and they can fix something, but they’re not an artist. Then there’s maybe somebody who’s a very artistic teacher that doesn’t know much about the technical aspects of the body. These people can be very good teachers, but very different teachers. And then there’s the motivator, the teacher who just makes everybody feel good. They’re not even a very good mover, but they create a really uplifting, valuable energy in the room.

Ideally, the same person can do all of that, but that’s asking a lot. That’s asking for somebody to dedicate their life to the art of teaching, and possibly be someone they are not. My teaching philosophy is: it’s most important to only share what you are passionate about; this will attract people to you.

That’s why it’s important to go to different workshops and different teachers?

Yes, learn from different people in different modalities, not just pole. You learn to teach by being a student. If you want to be a good teacher learn from someone who is crazy passionate and whose teaching inspires you.

I think that if you find a pole teacher who’s really good at teaching, most of them have experienced being a student in something else for a long period of time. It would be very hard to be a good teacher if you haven’t spent much time as a student.
You also learn what not to do by having bad teachers. That’s important, too. When you take a class and realize what didn’t work, you learn about how to behave as a teacher.

– End of Part 2 –

You want to know how to be better at pole dance? Then read on to the last third >> Marlo Fisken Interview – Part 3

Photos by Pole Ninja

Meet Marlo

Marlo Fisken is a well known pole dancer with 25 years of dance experience and 15 years of teaching experience. She is known for her detailed eye for alignment, fun classes, and movement flow. She’s credited with popularizing many common pole moves, Bird of paradise and Pegasus being the most famous. She’s also an experienced model; she’s unbelievably photogenic in photos, especially the ones taken by Pole Ninja photography.

There’s so much to tell about Marlo, and much was already said. So this interview is meant for ordinary pole dance enthusiasts in hope that Marlo’s wisdom will inspire us to be a better person and a pole dancer.

I came to know Marlo at one of her workshops she had in Ljubljana in Extra Pole Fitness, as a part of Fall Tour 2016 with Kenneth Kao. She is a great teacher and without a doubt one of the wisest one I came across. Her attention is in the ”now” and her thoughts are deep. She doesn’t follow the crowd. Marlo knows how to listen to herself and that’s why I suppose she managed to find her unique dance flow we all admire so much.

First of all, dear Marlo, I would like to thank you for accepting my invitation and honoring us with your interview, hosted here on Boomkats.

There are three common categories in pole dance. Fitness/athletic, and then exotic and artistic. Isn’t it limiting to have just three categories in the pole dance world?

Well, yes. We can generalize movement and give it a category, but this is self-limiting. I suppose exotic usually means “heels” or posturing the body in a way that is meant to captivate, entice and allure. But heels does not equal exotic- exotic is an energy that has to be released or cultivated.

Fitness/Athletic, as it is usually seen, tends to lack honest, emotive movement quality; It’s mostly about doing the hardest possible versions of things. This is the “sport” side. I think this is pretty easy to categorize.

And then artistic is technically anything— since you can’t decide what art is. Of course, refined, technically and conceptually strong artistry is usually prized. But you can combine any other movement form with pole (breakdance, Butoh, tap dance) and call it artistic. You can dress up as lettuce and call it artistic. (By the way, I’m a fan of dedicatedly weird. If you are fully committed to being abstract, I will pay attention.)

But, regardless of style, there is a message in movement. That message is most often some range of human emotion. See, in a single day, a person will experience a wide range of emotions. One moment they feel powerful, then the next maybe angry, sad, conflicted or sexy.
This may mean you are sexy one moment, then athletic and then expressive and dancey in a single song. Music tells us this too. If you listen close enough, many songs take you on a voyage of qualities and emotions. This may well defy or cross the three categories you mentioned.

Personally, I like pieces (or freestyles) that I can’t describe. This means it challenged my mind. If I see it and can easily describe it…then, it wasn’t truly captivating.

So you think there’s enough room for other styles in between to develop?

Well sure. But beyond style, there is certainly room for people to learn to listen to what they need. Being funny or ridiculous is important too. Being able to use the pole as a tool for restorative movement is important.

I think in general people try to be too serious about this pole thing. Pole attracts people who want to take achievement (or lack of it) very seriously.  I believe movement is supposed to benefit us emotionally, not emotionally tax us or make us feel sad and defeated.

Some days maybe you may need to be sensual, some days you may need to have a party, and then other days you need to be a character or an animal. So rather than saying more “styles” should to develop, I think that learning to honestly assess and express is what would represent true growth in the pole world.

It’s much more of expressing yourself and your feelings than anything else.

Yeah. For me, playing with music gives me life. If a song comes on that calls for being spastic, I’ll be spastic. If it sounds like a voyage in outer space, that’s how I move. If a tango song comes on, I channel tango energy.

The song shapes my movement, not the feeling I had when I began. I never start moving with the idea that I need to express something particular, I just know I need to move. Then, once I match my movement to sound, I feel complete.

I read once that you’ve said that what attracted you with pole was the sexiness.

Yes. I grew up dancing and worked as a professional dancer for a long time, and I didn’t really have the opportunity to move sensually in a non-commercialized way. This is part of why I was always very attracted to caribbean and african dance forms- many of these dances are very sensual.
See, the professional dance world really looks down on what’s considered “adult entertainment”, but I find it captivating. Sensual and erotic expression is equally important, potentially more-so than technical and commercialized dance.

But— when I started, I quickly realized that you can make pole whatever you want it to be. It’s just an apparatus. There’s the dance floor axis, and then there’s this other, vertical axis.

But you never dance in heels.

I do occasionally. I’ve performed in heels a number of times.

But you prefer them off.

I prefer them off for mechanical reasons. Heels are not good for your body. That’s not something that can be argued; it’s been proven again and again. In short, when your foot cannot move, the bones of your feet suffer and become mal-aligned. Then, your ankle and knee have to move differently; often they move more and become unstable. Over time, this pattern causes deterioration, bunions, etc.. I notice, after I dance in heels, that my knees don’t feel good.

But, I do appreciate, and enjoy two aspects of wearing heels while pole dancing; the psychological component and the adaptation to the limitation.

Heels send a message to the wearer (and the viewer). Usually a message of of power, or submission. Simply by putting them on, you can become a different character. This can inspire movement. Also, because your legs are now longer, you move in ways that amplify this added length.

Like I explained before, heels changes the way you move. Because your feet are immobilized, the hips and knees may begin to do more. This is fun to play with. Heels are a tool to move differently, and I appreciate that.

Like exotic pole dance.

Right, lots of knee circles, spinal undulations, kicks and splits. It would be the same if I decided to tie my hands together. My movement will change because of the limitation. If i cant move my arms, my desire to move will go to whatever is left available.
Also, heels  are heavy and huge, and I travel for months at a time.

You said that dance would be different if your hands were tied up. I like your creative thinking, and also last night at your workshop, you used some very creative games for the warmup. What do you think is the importance of such games?

I believe creative games are essential to developing style and awareness. If you learn how to move your body only by imitation, in a sense, you don’t own the movement. I like to teach people to imitate, then apply creativity right away.

Creative games provide an opportunity for problem-solving. Like I said last night,  “Move across the room without taking your hands off the floor” – this is not a difficult thing to do, but it does challenge you to focus on the task.

If I was to say, “Okay, just free move or free dance,” it may terrify some people. Because there are so many options, it can paralyze you into a state of non-decision and self-judgement. Games require focus, and focus encourages creativity.

I really like integrating creative exercises into a warmup because the reality is that I don’t know what anybody really needs as they transition from regular life to being a student. I can make informed decisions, based on my experience, but I can’t truly know.  Of course, there are certain guidelines for a warm-up like: create heat, activate the musculature according to what will happen later, mobilize the joints etc.. But exactly what’s needed is specific to the individual.
So, my approach is to create games that encourage people to do functional, warming movements (put weight in the arms, challenge their core, mobilize the spine), appropriate to their level. If somebody knows how to do handstands, they’ll do handstands. If somebody doesn’t, they don’t. This way, I’m not asking anyone to do something that could injure them.

Also, this works because of the type of movement that I teach. I don’t begin with anything very intense. In my class, we’re focusing on dance, transitions, and the mind’s role in creativity.  As a result, I make my class creative from the beginning rather than asking you to copy me for 15 minutes. I think that movement dependency ( feeling like you don’t know what to do with your body unless someone tells you) is a big problem. We all have body intelligence; you just need to learn to listen.

This is what I liked most, because it has released my inner tension.

Good. That’s perfect. It could create tension if you’re watching me, trying to understand what I’m doing , trying to hear me, and self-questioning if you’re doing it right. With that exercise, you know you’re doing it right if your hands are on the floor. [laughs]

– End of Part 1 –

You want to know how to find your own style in dance? Then read on to the second part. >> Marlo Fisken Interview – Part 2

Photos by Pole Ninja